Bush Admits to Authorizing Wiretaps

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Tornado

Retro Grade Joined: August 16, 2003 Status: Offline Posts: 2958 Rep:

Bush Admits to Authorizing Wiretaps

Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:13:40 PM #14068 Perm Link

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/16/bush.nsa.ap/index.html

If this is true, he should be tried and convicted of criminal offense for the laws he broke and likely impeached. If we can't uphold our basic principles when they're no longer so convenient, then they aren't really principles.

The terrorists did more damage on 9/11 than anyone might have realized. This country (a.k.a. governmant) is so focused on staying safe and preventing death that we can't seem to tolerate even a little freedom. If we don't fix this it will be the downfall of the entire concept of America.

Michael: Jodie, how's my schedule look for today?
Jodie: You've got a conference and dinner party at the Japanese Embassy regarding wildlife protection.
Michael: Oh, yeah...sorry, but I'll have to cancel that. I'm heading out to save America!

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areamike Joined: June 27, 2005 Status: Offline Posts: 787 Rep:

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Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:50:40 AM #14087 Perm Link

Who really cares? We as a country voted him in as President and now the Majority that voted him in are whining about it.

Wire taps? I hope they do everything possible to minimize or even eliminate terrorist attacks. I say friggin tap every damn immigrant that comes into this country. They have no damn rights in the US, IMO. They weren't born here, half or better are illegal immigrants and it's only getting worse.

By 2010, US and Mexico will be one nation..Just watch.

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free::zombie

Joined: December 6, 2005 Status: Offline Posts: 930 Rep:

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Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:18:21 AM #14090 Perm Link

In response to areamike #14087

Said By areamike
I say friggin tap every damn immigrant that comes into this country. They have no damn rights in the US, IMO.

That attitude so bloody stinks. Conservative shit.
I bet you have at least two ancestors from europe. And that's not in the US, is it ? huh ?
What if I moved to the USA, helped the economy by earning a lot of money at IBM and helped you by designing a revolutionary CPU. And you'd deny me any friggin' right, eh ? I'm not speaking for illegal immigrants. But they shouldn't be monitored. They should be thrown back over the border without further ado. Or better, the wall, or the steel curtain if you wish.
Bush says he'll do everything in his power to protect the states. But monitoring blasted citizens isn't in his bloody power, goddamn!

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areamike Joined: June 27, 2005 Status: Offline Posts: 787 Rep:

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Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:18:30 PM #14096 Perm Link

What on earth do my ancestors have to do with anything in the HERE AND NOW? I was born here. I don't care about the past. It's past. We are living TODAY and for the furture.

I'd rather be conservative than dead.

If you were a legitimate legal and upstanding immagrant that works for IBM and makes a revolutionary CPU, I woudln't care WTF you do. The people they have monitored are red flagged, if that makes sense.
And I'm not saying you shouldn't have any rights living here in the US if not born here, I'm saying WE as a Nation need to monitor the 'entire' immigrant status more thouroughly, which we aren't and have not done.

And does God damning it help anything?

AND YES, I do beleive ALL immigrants should be monitored at the least up to a point. If one becomes a CPU making genius and upstanding US citizen, then fine, stop tapping them. BUT, what people with limited knowledge or understanding do not realize is that Bush is monitoring people who SHOULD be monitored, commie suspected terrorists, plain and simple.

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free::zombie

Joined: December 6, 2005 Status: Offline Posts: 930 Rep:

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Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:04:42 PM #14098 Perm Link

In response to areamike #14096

Said By areamike
What on earth do my ancestors have to do with anything in the HERE AND NOW? I was born here. I don't care about the past. It's past. We are living TODAY and for the furture.

I'd rather be conservative than dead.

If you were a legitimate legal and upstanding immagrant that works for IBM and makes a revolutionary CPU, I woudln't care WTF you do. The people they have monitored are red flagged, if that makes sense.
And I'm not saying you shouldn't have any rights living here in the US if not born here, I'm saying WE as a Nation need to monitor the 'entire' immigrant status more thouroughly, which we aren't and have not done.

you sounded like "every immigrant is a jerk and has no rights". This would also apply to your ancestors, who were in search of freedom and happyness, not discrimination. Maybe bush has arguable reasons to monitor SOME people. but they are still humans with dignity and rights (Universal Declaration of Human Rights, hereafter UDoHR, art. 1) which should not be influenced by origin or opinion (UDoHR, art 2) , who should be recognized as person before the law (UDoHR, art 6) (AFAIK, these monitorings are illegal in US law), equally and without discrimination (UDoHR, art 7). So much to the foreighners part. now:
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks. (UdoHR, art 12)

I think that's enough for now.

Said By areamike
And does God damning it help anything?

nothing. I saw fit to swear at that part of the sentence and could have said "bloody hell" just as well.

Said By areamike
AND YES, I do beleive ALL immigrants should be monitored at the least up to a point. If one becomes a CPU making genius and upstanding US citizen, then fine, stop tapping them. BUT, what people with limited knowledge or understanding do not realize is that Bush is monitoring people who SHOULD be monitored, commie suspected terrorists, plain and simple.

But where is this point ? The "CPU making genious" was an extreme example. I did not in particular want to say "leave people who help you alone". I was talking about potential that should suffice to give all people a dignified chance in freedom

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areamike Joined: June 27, 2005 Status: Offline Posts: 787 Rep:

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Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:28:18 PM #14099 Perm Link

Germany is aweful far from the US. You only know what you read in the news and see on the TV. You do not live and reside here and experience the facts first-hand.
It's a lot different here than you think and see and read and hear.
Move here and experience what we do and your view may change.

example. Just a few weeks ago, Wal-Mart, a major Retail store was in trouble because of hiring vendors that were using illegal immigrants as workers. It's so common it is not even funny. This country has more legal and illegal immigraants flocking to it than ANY other country in the world. That in itself is enough for me to say YES, the US should monitor more closely, all immigrants coming here, in any way shape or form regardless of their so called Human rights etc.

BLOODY HELL and GOD DAMNITT are very very different. God dammit is blasphemy to God if you are a Christian. Bloody hell is nothing more than a place.

I see you say

Quote
Maybe bush has arguable reasons to monitor SOME people. but they are still humans with [B:1135573482]dignity and rights[/B:1135573482] (Universal Declaration of Human Rights, hereafter UDoHR, art. 1) which should not be influenced

Where are my RIGHTS of protection from these so-called scumbag illegal immigrants and terrorists?
Have we made laws and declarations that protect criminals and illegal immigrants and the like? Yes we have in the US and world.

Human rights? Human dignity? Do you beleive a person has dignity and human rights that comes into your house and murders your wife and children because he believes what he is doing is just and right in his own eyes? Or would you praise the people who spied on him and prevented him from commiting a tragic crime if that was the case?

I can say I have appreciated our discussion thus far. You and I have had a great discussion here I think. Thank you.

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free::zombie

Joined: December 6, 2005 Status: Offline Posts: 930 Rep:

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Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:24:48 AM #14110 Perm Link

In response to areamike #14099

Said By areamike
Germany is aweful far from the US. You only know what you read in the news and see on the TV. You do not live and reside here and experience the facts first-hand.
It's a lot different here than you think and see and read and hear.
Move here and experience what we do and your view may change.

you are perfectly right. All I know is from newspapers, TV, movies, video games et cetera.

Said By areamike
example. Just a few weeks ago, Wal-Mart, a major Retail store was in trouble because of hiring vendors that were using illegal immigrants as workers. It's so common it is not even funny. This country has more legal and illegal immigraants flocking to it than ANY other country in the world. That in itself is enough for me to say YES, the US should monitor more closely, all immigrants coming here, in any way shape or form regardless of their so called Human rights etc.

I am only defending legal immigrants with a clean record. Illeagl immegrants should just be sent home. It's their right. Legal immigrants without a clean record should be treated just like you treat other criminals. Be sent tp prison, be monitored, whatever you do with criminals.

Said By areamike
BLOODY HELL and GOD DAMNITT are very very different. God dammit is blasphemy to God if you are a Christian. Bloody hell is nothing more than a place.

to me, they are only mear swearwords. "bloody hell" is a very common combined swearword in britain, and that happens to be where my english roots.

Said By areamike
I see you say

Quote
Maybe bush has arguable reasons to monitor SOME people. but they are still humans with [B:1135573482]dignity and rights[/B:1135573482] (Universal Declaration of Human Rights, hereafter UDoHR, art. 1) which should not be influenced

Where are my RIGHTS of protection from these so-called scumbag illegal immigrants and terrorists?
Have we made laws and declarations that protect criminals and illegal immigrants and the like? Yes we have in the US and world.

Human rights? Human dignity? Do you beleive a person has dignity and human rights that comes into your house and murders your wife and children because he believes what he is doing is just and right in his own eyes? Or would you praise the people who spied on him and prevented him from commiting a tragic crime if that was the case?

See above. Do whatever you see fit with criminals and illegal immigrants. However, I am against favouring "natives" over legal immigrants.

Said By areamike
I can say I have appreciated our discussion thus far. You and I have had a great discussion here I think. Thank you.

Yes, this discussion has been surprisingly "peaceful". But now we have both presented our competing views on the topic in detail, I think further discussion will probably erupt in a pointless flamewar,

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Tornado

Retro Grade Joined: August 16, 2003 Status: Offline Posts: 2958 Rep:

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Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:31:27 AM #14111 Perm Link

In response to areamike #14099

Said By areamike
Just a few weeks ago, Wal-Mart, a major Retail store was in trouble because of hiring vendors that were using illegal immigrants as workers. It's so common it is not even funny. This country has more legal and illegal immigraants flocking to it than ANY other country in the world. That in itself is enough for me to say YES, the US should monitor more closely, all immigrants coming here, in any way shape or form regardless of their so called Human rights etc.

Not to interrupt this arguement, but wouldn't the reason for this be because of our promised rights? Isn't it inscribed into the side of the Statue of Liberty, give us your cold, your tattered, your poor, or something to that effect? Is America's borders not shared with Mexico, a country not known for their wealth? Isn't America viewed as a country of wretched excess? While quite technically, illegal immigrants have no rights, is it fair to treat them that way?

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Pancakes

Joined: August 13, 2003 Status: Offline Posts: 2581 Rep:

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Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:06:38 AM #14112 Perm Link

In response to areamike #14096

Said By areamike
What on earth do my ancestors have to do with anything in the HERE AND NOW? I was born here. I don't care about the past. It's past. We are living TODAY and for the furture.

I'd rather be conservative than dead.

If you were a legitimate legal and upstanding immagrant that works for IBM and makes a revolutionary CPU, I woudln't care WTF you do. The people they have monitored are red flagged, if that makes sense.
And I'm not saying you shouldn't have any rights living here in the US if not born here, I'm saying WE as a Nation need to monitor the 'entire' immigrant status more thouroughly, which we aren't and have not done.

And does God damning it help anything?

AND YES, I do beleive ALL immigrants should be monitored at the least up to a point. If one becomes a CPU making genius and upstanding US citizen, then fine, stop tapping them. BUT, what people with limited knowledge or understanding do not realize is that Bush is monitoring people who SHOULD be monitored, commie suspected terrorists, plain and simple.

Xenophobe much?

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areamike Joined: June 27, 2005 Status: Offline Posts: 787 Rep:

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Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:07:59 PM #14116 Perm Link

In response to Pancakes #14112

Said By Pancakes
Xenophobe much?

No, I am not afraid of foreigners per-say, I am afraid of terrorists. Unfortunately the majority of terrorist attacks here in the US have been by 'foreigners'.
So I guess, yes I am kinda scared of foreigners, if they are a terrorist. Wow, full circle on that one.

Said By Tornado
Not to interrupt this arguement, but wouldn't ...

I wouldn't consider this an argument. I think it was a pretty good, healthy and civilized discussion, between me and some foreigner...JUST KIDDING on that!...I couldn't pass that humor up.

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Thefremen

LOL whut? Joined: September 29, 2002 Status: Offline Posts: 2475 Rep:

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Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:48:01 PM #14124 Perm Link

The thing I don't really understand is why they needed the power to do illegal wiretapping. Can anyone clue me in to this one? As far as I know, law enforcement officials can start wiretapping someone basically straight away, then get a proper warrant later on.

Giving the pres. a blank check to take away whatever constitutional rights he wants in order to protect us from terrorists is not a good idea, unless you are into live action role playing George Orwell novels.

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Hollow_Glory Joined: February 2, 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 7 Rep:

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Mon Mar 6, 2006 12:31:57 PM #16063 Perm Link

In response to free::zombie #14090

Said By free-zombie
Bush says he'll do everything in his power to protect the states. But monitoring blasted citizens isn't in his bloody power, goddamn!

Actually.... Since america is at 'war' he gets special priveldges or something like that, so he can pretty much tap as many people as he wants

I don't like the drugs, but the drugs like me...

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Aron Schatz

2014: Year of change. Joined: August 3, 2001 Status: Offline Posts: 10753 Rep:

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Mon Mar 6, 2006 1:05:49 PM #16066 Perm Link

In response to Hollow_Glory #16063

No. America has not declared war. War is between two states... The 'war' on terror is just a term.

2014 is going to be a good year. More content, more streamlining. Be a part of history!

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Thefremen

LOL whut? Joined: September 29, 2002 Status: Offline Posts: 2475 Rep:

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Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:22:06 AM #16561 Perm Link

In response to Aron Schatz #16066

Also, for a weekend, they called it the "struggle against extremism" but that offended the Christian Fundamentalists so they had to go back to "war on terror" so the Fundies could get back to book burning and human sacrifice.

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